Over the last 18 months a lot of negative information about Tartan.C&C Yachts, Novis Marine and the principal operators of the various involved companies has been dredged up and posted over on Sailnet.com.
Sailnet CEO Rob Proctor removed two long threads about the issues consisting of many hundreds of posts when he was contacted by Bill Ross of Tartan and advised that failure to remove the threads might result in an expensive lawsuit.

One of the reasons this site was founded was to give sailors the ability to speak their minds about companies, products and services and get beyond the marketing departments and commercial reviews provided by their advertising partners.

I’ve enclosed an edited version of the original Tartan thread for anyone inclined to delve into the entire 18 month history of this issue. Only posts with off subject remarks and banter have been deleted and I can provide the unedited thread upon request.

To my mind there are several issues that continue to evolve which should be of concern and interest to prospective buyers of new and used boats built by Novis.

1. Construction Issues: There has been one well documented case of a Tartan 3700 hull that split at sea and which was subsequently repaired by Tartan. This boat was documented recently in a BoatUS article. There is also another boat owner who received a court judgement for two other boats with defects that were not honored under warranty (Teague) . Two present owners presently have suits pending, one for hull defects and the other for installed saildrive warranty defects. (Vito and Stener). I am advised by the owner that another suit may soon be filed over hull cracking and failure to make satisfactory repairs. I make no judgement on the outstanding claims as that is for the courts to decide.

2. Warranty Support: Obviously, if the issues in #1 are valid, the willingness of the company to stand behind large warranty claims is called into question. During 2008 an attempt was made to sell company assets (asset sale) to a new company which fell through. Had the sale gone through, the question is legitimately raised about what warranty obligations the new company would commit to as those would have been part of the liabilities of the old company. For many months…this question was asked without the company committing to the legal responsibility to honor all legitimate warranty claims.

3. Legal and Financial Concerns: The company (and associated companies) has a significant # of legal court judgments against it and well over $1 million is unpaid. Furthermore, many of these suits have been filed and won or settled in favor of its bankers, former lawyers and key suppliers. Several other suits by vendors are presently in litigation. In addition the State of Ohio has several judgement liens against the company for workers compensation lawsuits and OSHA fined the company $340k within the last two weeks for repeated violations of safety and workplace standards. The company is also reported (Connaut OH Star-Ledger) to be continuing to seek a buyer. Given the current economic conditions for boat builders, the foregoing issues would suggest that care be taken in the purchase of a several hundred thousand-dollar boat where significant funds are required up front.

I am establishing this thread to continue to report on these issues as they evolve and to invite questions, and comments from others. I have always really liked Tartans and thought they were very fine boats. With over 300 of the epoxy hulls now built, and a very few reported problems, my gut feel is that the overwhelming majority of the Novis boats out there ARE very fine boats. This thread is more about the company and what happens to Novis boat owners who DO have problems. It is my hope that the exposure of these issues causes the Tartan/C&C new or used boat consumer to be more aware of issues which might affect their purchase and to exercise greater diligence to insure they are happy with their purchase decision.
********
Note: Can't upload the thread here yet. Here's a link instead.

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Cam

Do you know how to see the invisible off topic forums?click

Wooo Hoooo lets hear it for free speech....

No You're using the T word.

Has anyone noticed the lack of Tartan advertisements in the sail rags? They used to be in every issue with full page ads and now they haven't been in any issue for the last several months.

Could you imagine them advertising here?

how can they be having all these problems and the new 5300 is still the boat of the year?

And you believe in the BOY awards as being really what they are??

Its magazines and advertisement

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PLEASE READ THIS WELCOME POST

i wish to be anonymous, (ha, ha, there is no anonmitity on the net but as riggers, we call a C & C built within the last few years, Cheap and Crappy. We have seen the "v" saildrive (which isn't our forte) out of alignment. "v" mechanics said not to start the engine.! They did come out and re fiberglass the bed and realign the engine.
I hope after all he has put into this vessel he makes is across the Atlantic as planned this spring. A lot of pin size issues, mainsheet blocks, and other things needed to be addressed before the shake down. He has been sailing the last two years and has hopefully resolved the rest of the issues. It is his battle though, not ours.

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It's easier to seek forgiveness than to ask for permission.

The Ullman Sails Lawsuit has been settled with the following details released:

08CV001716 ULLMAN SAILS CLEVELAND INC vs . NOVIS MARINE LTD et al RLC







02/25/2009 Journal Entry Filed: Upon agreement of the parties, Judgment is entered in favor of the plaintiff, Ullman Sails Cleveland, Inc., f.k.a. Doyle sales Cleveland, Inc. against the defendant, Novis Marine Ltd., in the amount of One Hundred Sixty-Four Thousand Three Hundred Thirty Five Dollars and Forty Cents ($164,335.40), with interest at the statutory rate from December 14, 2006. It is further ordered that the plaintiff pay the costs of this proceeding, for which judgment is rendered and execution may issue. Vol 1814 Pg 0149-0151 6https://phoenix.lakecountyohio.gov/pa/pa_cp.urd/pamw2000.docket_lst?1694574

https://phoenix.lakecountyohio.gov/p...mw6500.display

Well...close to $200k with interest AND attorney fees added. One more judgement to add to the growing list of unpaid judgments available at the site referenced above. Simply enter NOVIS as under company name as the search term and you will see ALL the closed cases, open case and decided cases with judgement liens against NOVIS At this ONE court. There are also suits pending and/settled in other venues but this is "home court" in Ohio.

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Cam

Do you know how to see the invisible off topic forums?click

Just in case..here is the Boat US article...

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PLEASE READ THIS WELCOME POST

I would like to point out something. *I* am the one hosting the file in the link up in Cam's original post.

If anyone has any questions about it being posted, you're more than welcome to write me at my email address directly which is listed on this site. (You have to be a member here to get to it) - but if there are complaints or gripes about it being posted.... it's ME you need to talk to.

Not Cam, or anyone related to this site.

Freedom of Speech isn't just an "American" or "US Citizen" issue.

It's a PEOPLE issue.

My thought, and belief is simple. Say what you want, as long as you're responsible about it. In this case, I take issue with a large company ordering or threatening a smaller company to "remove" privately made statements by private individuals in regards to lack of workmanship, service or warranty of any commercially produced goods.

In other words, if you are a company official, lawyer or CEO of the aforementioned groups then you would do yourselves good to CORRECT your problems publicly instead of attack people privately.

The link is on my site, where it will remain until the situation is corrected.

Thank you.

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Rick Donaldson, CET, NØNJY
Winds of Time

Yes...we all should be thankful that Rick has put up and hosted those threads for months now to help keep the whole story on line.
The other good news is that phone calls don't intimidate the Portagee either or Sailing Anarchy or BoatUS. Good people will insure that all sides of an issue can be heard.
BTW...for those of you that post on other sites or have your own website...linking to this thread and/or Ricks, will insure that google results when searching for information on Tartan/Novis will easily find the information.

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Cam

Do you know how to see the invisible off topic forums?click

They're probably also being sued by the phone company, so not allowed international phone calls to Portugal!!

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PLEASE READ THIS WELCOME POST

http://mako3700.blogspot.com/

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PLEASE READ THIS WELCOME POST

Thanks for hosting that file Rick.

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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

Cam and SD - I wasn't looking for fame, just a ... fight

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Rick Donaldson, CET, NØNJY
Winds of Time

Can I assume from this that the phone calls have begun already?

Not that I know of

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PLEASE READ THIS WELCOME POST

Received the following link today:

Apparently another company is suing Grand River Composites;

Northern States Metals Co. v. Grand River Composites Inc., money.

If you scroll down to almost mid page in this link it can be seen..

CLICK HERE

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PLEASE READ THIS WELCOME POST

Cam and Giulietta have some bone to pick with Tartan and C&C. I want to know what it is. They don't own a Tartan, so I just can't see the connection here. This is a 2 year old story but keeps poping up as they love to post it on different threads on different sites. They don't know jack bout the fact, except what they can find in the paper or courts. Like nybody care about a companies laundry. No this has nothing to do with freedom of speech so get over the BS.
I know more of the facts in regards to 2 of the 3 "boat" issues, and they know only a portion of what one owner has told them. I now what that owner has also left out.
Get over it, there is no story here, no conspiracy, nothing but 3 owners out of hundreds that have issues. One had them taken care of and is happy, the other had them taken care of and sold his boat, and the last will get his day in court I guess.
I has a much more indepth response for you, but it was deleted, kinda of what Mako did to anyone who posted on his web site good things to say about tartan and C&C. Go figure.

Infringer,

first of all, I don't know you and yo don't know me...I find odd that your first post here is to say just what you said above...are you related to them?? maybe. weird...anyway..you have and claim to be holding so much knowledge about the cases...are you from tartan C&C (it's easy to know).

I don't care, really. You are entitled to your opinion, it's a fee World.

Contrary to what you say, I have absolutely no bone whatsoever, with Tartan or C&C, believe me or not..I don't really care...

I saw what I saw, and showed what I saw...several times..unfortunately on Sailnet Tartan forced them to delete it, on Stuffers, we just left, and it landed here...I'm in Europe, so I don't really care what they say or do...here it will stay..

If it was Beneteau, or Dehler or any other manufacturer, I would do the same..

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PLEASE READ THIS WELCOME POST

Even if I had one...I would never respond to such a rude intimidating manner...who do you think you are?

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PLEASE READ THIS WELCOME POST

If you have more facts, please share them, otherwise, STFU

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Charlie

Courtney is my Dancing Angel

Give me ambiguity or give me something else.

Life's a reach, then you jibe.

I think you really confused us with someone else..

I think with only one post (don't bother I took a screen shot)..how could you accuse us of deleting anything you wrote?? HOW?

How is that possible...WHO here deleted you ever???

You must be confusing something. how can you have 1 post here (this one) and yet claim we deleted you?

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PLEASE READ THIS WELCOME POST

hey...here's another one to get you going...

CLICK HERE

what do you want more?? I have several other photos of other cracked hulls, but will not post them, want those too?? At least 5 other boats.

Where I come from..that's 4 boats too many...even if 2 cracked...it would be too much....

I never saw that happen in other NEW boats in 35 years at sea...

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PLEASE READ THIS WELCOME POST

I can only assume that Infringer37 is the owner of the Chesapeake Bay based C&C of the same name. At some level I understand his frustration with this whole business. There is very contridictory information all over the web. On one hand there have been a large number of lawsuits but on the other hand articles like the one above.

While there seems to be a wide range of alegations, it seems to me that we don't fully have the information on the issues. We have information from a few disgruntled owners, we have a collection of court filings, and we have some direct observations. To me these are not the best sources of reliable information.

From what I have seen so far, Tartan/C&C has been a company in a state of financial struggle for a long time which is pretty common during this period. They tried some high tech building approaches with mixed results, but in all of these discussions I personnally have not seen the kind of hard evidence of malfesance or negligence.

If I were Tartan/C&C or a Tartan or C&C owner I would be very frustrated by the ongoing discussions. I think that airing these discussions is reasonable in that there are lessons to be learned from whatever the truth turns out to be. On the other hand I suggest that it is very important for the moderators of this forum or any other to try to be fair minded in what gets posted in these discussions. Its easy for there to be a 'court of public opinion' pile on, based on at best snippets of information.

So far there seems to be a reasonably fair minded pubishing of info here but I also want to remind my friends who have created this site, that there are bound to be owners who are rightly or not upset by the publishing of preliminary informations and they should be treated with the same respect as those who criticize the events and management of Tartan/C&C.

Respectfully,
Jeff

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Sailing "Synergy", my Farr 11.6 (AKA Farr 38 design #72)) out of Annapolis, Maryland

Jeff, I speak not of allegations, nor do I make allegations, I saw 2 cracked boats already with my eyes (and I have no relationship with the owners, I came upon them by coincidence), in real life, went inside them and saw...I am not speculating, I am not a disgruntled owner, I don't really care about the court cases, and yes, my observations were direct...how is that not a reliable information?

Further..I have my computer (well my pen drive) filled with photos of 3 more cracked hulls, one of them looks like a Swiss cheese after a failed attempt to repair said boat, and 2 more that show crack on the hull...I promised not to show them or put them for public display...

Why, is it that Tartan / C&C, instead of using the persuasive techniques YOU know very well they used elsewhere, and the multiple personalities they used to log on to defend the name, why is it they just don't come here and EXPLAIN simple and clearly??

Why?

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PLEASE READ THIS WELCOME POST

From my perspective, totally removed from anything directly related to tartan, I see that the coverup is worse than the crime. If tartan had come forward and given good explainations to the sailnet thread instead of threatening a lawsuit, this would probalby have all gone away. But when they try to use legal muscle to silence critics, the critics just start speaking louder and louder and louder. When that happens more and more people hear the critics.

I would never buy from them just based on the legal BS they have created, regardless of whether thay made the best boat for the best price in the whole world. Bad management if you ask me.

I've got no dog in this hunt, but what really troubles me is the perceived "strong-arm" tactics that Ross et al has used in PUBLIC filings and threats of legal action to give the cover of darkness to the whole business he's run.

The shell games, the consistent regrouping of companies to obviously avoid legitimate debtors is bush league and one step above used car sales. (no offense to used car sales)

I want that phone call. I want him to just plain threaten to sue me. I got nothing to lose. All I have is time. I've been sued by better, and sent the alligator shoe set home scratching their heads and counting the extra holes in their butt.
Usually the bullies are all talk and little action. Even his former legal counsel is suing him. That ain't a good sign.
I want the first set of interrogatories. Lets get some responses from the Discovery process.
See, in my opinion, he's a bully. He's a snake oil sales guy, AND he's a lawyer. Thats 3 strikes in my book, and this crippled half dead crazy wouldn't mind a couple of honest answers.

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Madness, Mayhem, Confusion? My work here is done.
"I mean if I went round saying I was an emperor because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, people would put me away."

I have to agree with CP... Even if there is no on-going problem with the Tartan and C&C boats being built today, the fact that Tartan/C&C/Ross/Jackett have chosen to use strong arm tactics to silence critics speaks volumes about the company and the ethics they have.

There is also the fact that Jackett et al. have previously used the "assets-only" sale of the company to dodge warranty liability, and have tried to execute another "assets-only" sale recently.

If there is no problem with the current production methods, why not come clean about the issues they have had. Why not explain what the problems WERE and HOW THEY WERE RESOLVED? Maybe, all the cover up is because there are still serious safety issues with the boats and they have not been resolved—they've certainly never said what the problems really were, or how the problems were resolved.

The finanacial status of the company, with the multitude of lawsuits going on and the numerous judgements being made against Tartan/C&C/Jackett/Ross also puts their ability to complete newly ordered boats in serious doubt. If you're ponying up $250000 for a boat, wouldn't you want to know whether the company you're giving the money to is going to be able to make the boat, and be there to back the 15 year warranty??

__________________

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

Well Giulietta and Cam have been beating this dead horse for a while, and when it looses steam or just people bored with the same old BS and not know actually some of the facts it does get boring. You sign up on Sailing Anarchy to post this same crap and when you saw there was no joy in a continued bashing of Tartan, you start this web site. Get the ****** over it. No one appointed the two of you a Boat Nazis as I can see.You want to talk about "STRONG ARM TACTICS" what do you think this time of crap is.
You reposted Mako's thread from his site which has long been a dead issue.
Do you know he wanted Tartan to buy back his boat so he could purchase a new T4100. No I guess you would not know.
Do you know he forced Beneteau to buy back his 3 month old Beneteau? No I guess he might have left that little gem out of his BS. Maybe Beneteau though it would be easier to cut and run, and Bill Ross being a lawyer decided to fight it out and not be as you all call it 'BULLIED" INTO BUYING A BOAT BACK.
Where were you little boat Nazi's when Sabre was buying back over a dozen Sabre 402's because of hull imperfections that developed. What about Goetz and the keel coming off a new boat last spring. The Cape Fear 38 , or Bavaria loosing keels. How about Swan and their rudder failures. Maybe you all should complain about boats that still blister if left in the water.

Do you remember his post on how well Tartan responded to his saildrive issue when they had no obligation to do so.
I guess you all think that Tartan should waranty a Yanmar product. Guess again. Tartan gave Mako an new saildrive , he **** up the second one all by himself.

Did you ever think to ask Mako, if he ever read any of the owner's manuals or books provided in the owner's packet. Again, I am sure he did not.
How much of all of the problems that ower's complain about are actually "factory" responsible. I guess none of you have ever heard the term "operator error".
Mako's issues were dealt with as I am aware, and when his strong arm threats of blogging the company to death fell on deaf ears he moved on and sold his boat last summer. How could it have ever passed a survey from what you all are saying about the boats. Again BS.

Mako even stop posting other Tartan owners post on his website if they were positive. He only wanted to find owners that had issues so he could exploit them to his advantage in his attempts to blackmail the company into giving him a boat. Mr. Vito has decided to join in on the fun and I guess he shall have his day in court.

The "cracked hulls", hmmm I have only seen one. Giulietta (Maine Sail) and Cam (Big GB) if you have pictures of more, send them to me. I am not talking about TICO crazing, I see that on every J 120 and 105 out there. I am not talking about the C&C 115 you snuck around taking pictures of at the Chicago Boat Show, and then as I recall were told just what the **** you were looking at. Oh yes, you did not even have the balls to go up and ask anyone working the booth what it was you were looking at. I am talking about water coming in hull cracks like the one on the Tartan 3700.
As for the Tartan 3700, that boat was more than likely cracked before it left the dock. The boat was repaired, returned and accepted by the owner. Case closed.

The 3700 hulls were inspected (#58-#119) and none were found to have an issues. So there is one isolated incident that seems to have been taken care out of 150 plus 3700's.Gee I can say that out of any production boat built that lives in the water year round shall blister in less than 6 years (Hunter/Beneteau/Catalina) that is why they give you a pro rated 5 year waranty. Maybe you should jump up and down and scream about those guys building boats that will be "defective" in the future.
It is one thing to write about a story, but to continue to beat a dead horse over for the 3rd year now gets very old.This is not even your story, but keeping something going that hads long lost the interest of most knowledgeable people.
So what we have is 2 owners trying to STRONG ARM/BULLY/Extort/Blackmail whatever words you want to use a company via the use of the internet in a smear campaign to get something for nothing. Give out half truths to get the MOB all riled up int some conspiracy theory that Tartan is out to screw some owner out of something.It worked once for Mako, Gee I wonder why it did not work with Tartan. Maybe there was no merit it.
There is not a manufacture out there that does not have some discruntled owners cherping away at them and by no means is any boat perfect out of the box or even a year later, but there are what we call the 5%ers. The dealer would be better off not selling them a boat as they shall never be happy no matter what you do. Hmm sounds like Mako/Sterns.
As for the various law suits and accounting stuff, go ahead and get all wrapped up in the corporate BS legal mumbo jumbo. It is not of any interest as to most. Look at what Goetz and what they just did and wiped out of 1.9 million in debt.
Personally I have a life and don't sit on the internet all day long cherping away to see my how many post I can have or pretend to know all about all as some on these forums.
As I said, what is to gain here? What is your goal here to continue digging up something that has already been resolved for the most part as to what really started all of this. If it is to drag down a company, then at least you have a goal and enjoy putting people out of work, hey, but it is all fun when it is annonomous and we are fighting the big bad corpaoration from taking away our freedom of speech. Freedom of speech comes at a price, and accountability is one of the realaties that comes with it. So when you blast away half cocked and continue the bs, don't get upset when you are asked to be held accountable for what you are saying.
I hear there is a scandal over at GM with not making good cars for the past 30 years when they should have learned from the gas crisis of the late 70's and early 80's. I hear AOG is handing out 175 million dollars of the tax payers money to the guys who ran that part of the company that drove it to near bankrupcy. Those home builders we all love and of course built the perfect homes, are we crying for them after they gouged their clients at 60% margin when they bought their "dream house".
Personally the depression the country is going through will take care of all your issues and there won't be a US boat builder left standing and more than likely some accross the pond will go by the by.
Whale away

infringer- And you would be, whom????? So you don't like annonomous posts, except yours??? I'm sure issues with GM are being openly talked about on CAR websites just as those home builders are being talked about are their respective sites. Unfortunatly this (and others) is a SAILING site. That means it is used to discuss SAILING and SAILBOATS. As to your points regarding other boat builders; they may very well be valid. You should post whatever information/thoughts you have on the matter. "We're just as crappy as the others" just doesn't seem like a good marketing slogan for Tartan though. While you're at it why don't you see if Tartan would like to have a representative publicly address concerns and put them to bed? Because in the end that's all it would take and it has been repeatedly asked for.

To make information available to any prospective Tartan/CC buyers.

It's of interest to some.

Has anything inaccurate been posted? and that door swings both ways.

__________________
Ray
S.V. Nikko
1983 Fraser 41
_____________________
Boating for over 20 years, some of them successfully.

Not sure what you meant by this, but I've not gotten any phone calls, letters, emails or threats... nor has our site.

__________________
Rick Donaldson, CET, NØNJY
Winds of Time

Infringer...

Thank you for your opinions, and time posting them...I don't really care, who you are, or where you come from, PLEASE NOTE THAT HERE YOU WILL NOT BE ALLOWED FOUL LANGUAGE..I am telling you, and this is a finbal warning..I will not edit your posts for language again, I have better things to do.

By the way, welcome, you seem a rather upset man..

You have a few things mixed up, especially who we are, and you show so much knowledge that I really think you are someone from the Tartan C&C company, which is good, I only wish they would come clean here and talk to us..they don't, they sent you instead...

Now, to be honest..I don't really care about Tartan and C&C, and the boats and the crisis, and Mako and Yanmar, or any other stuff..I really don't..so spare me the time, OK?

write all you want, just mind the language...

By the way..you better come clean with your IP, or we'll just have to "nuke" you...yes, you know what I mean, (and we can actually do it), and although you think you're smart fudging your IP, we're already one step ahead of you, OK?

Better come clean with that too.

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PLEASE READ THIS WELCOME POST

Hi... dunno who you are, but you're a noob to the site. And if you're not a noob to the situation, then you know it doesn't matter HOW OLD the issue is if the issue hasn't been corrected. From all I've read (and no, I don't own a Tartan - and no, at this point in time I WON'T own one) the companies (several of them!) haven't owned UP to safety issues. Not an apology. Just an attempt (several) to HIDE the issue. That's bad news.

You do? Then in the interest of full disclosure... who are you?

Always one in every crowd attempting to obfuscate, huh? LOL

"I has"...? Nice grammar we's guess...

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Rick Donaldson, CET, NØNJY
Winds of Time

Apparently "Free speech" is only for those on one side of an issue and not the other.

Freedom of speech does indeed "come at a price"... but just because someone has more money than someone else doesn't mean they get "more freedom of speech" either.

Freedom of speech comes with RESPONSIBILITY.

And it seems that responsibility is what we're after here, rather than spewing a bunch of random insults, and veiled threats with bad grammar, perhaps one ought to endeavor to explain what sort of vested interest one HAS in this issue since one is taking the "other side" for a change.

In other words, in all fairness, you ought to state your true purpose here.

MY true purpose is to allow for people to get the whole TRUTH about a story, read the facts, and not have the facts hidden away in some deep, dark corner of the internet and never allow others to learn about it.

Knowledge, they say, is power. Power is not money to buy "freedom of speech" for one group, while preventing it for another.

__________________
Rick Donaldson, CET, NØNJY
Winds of Time

Please note,
I am NOT speaking of the quality of Tartans or C&C's. By most accounts, The company (regardless of who was at the helm) made some very fine sailing vessels.

"Sailing Anarchy to post this same crap"

Actually, I've been a member over there since 2006, but thats of no matter, and pointless to this discussion.

I'll admit there there is "one in every barrel" that wants something for nothing. I have no quarrel with a company defending itself from a rogue owner or two, heck, a half a dozen balanced over the years of production may not be so bad if you do the delta on the numbers.

this has NOTHING to do with the saildrive or yanmar issue.
As you may know, if a problem comes to the litigation stage, the injured party sues everyone in the phone book and lets the judge throw out the the uninvolved.

Yea, I knew about the Bene... And Bene "Did the right thing". WITHOUT a lot of squawking. I give them props for that. Lots of props.

"Maybe you should jump up and down and scream about those guys building boats that will be "defective" in the future."

Uhhh, the boats in question, the company in question the subject at hand is ... wait, dramatic pause.... ready?
THESE BOATS AND THIS COMPANY ARE HAVING PROBLEMS RIGHT NOW.

Oh, I'm so glad you brought up the "Sabre problem"
a) it never went to court
b) Sabre contacted the owners of said tubs and said... Uh,,, we've got a potential problem, and heres what we'd like to do about it"

Thats just a tad bit different than what Ross et al did.
(gotta give ya a point for trying to change the subject though, next time, do a little research before you spout off, ok?)

Try to stay on topic, willya?

"...but to continue to beat a dead horse over for the 3rd year now gets very old.This is not even your story, but keeping something going that hads long lost the interest of most knowledgeable people."

The only reason that this is now "3 years old" is DUE TO THE NOVIS ATTORNEYS DELAYING TACTICS IN COURT, do you need to see the public filings, the requests for continuances?
Just as an aside, some "knowledgeable people" are interested.

This doesn't have a lot to do with the disgrunted owners, yes, there are always going to be some, the 5%'ers as you call them. You're right, some people are never going to be satisfied no matter what you do. This is larger than that. This, is so much more.
Could it be that some of the disgruntled owners may not have been so disgruntled had their problems been handled in a timely, forthright manner? Probably, although we will never know now, will we.
What we do know is how Ross et al chose to handle it. Ross et al handled it in an adversarial, delay, deny, dismiss manner.
Not cool from a business perspective.

I have a real bee in my bonnet for carny shows, circus acts, mis-direction, obfuscation and smoke & mirrors.
I leave you with this...
This is just Lake County, Ohio court filings.
Make of them what you will, but if I was going to lay out some hard earned schekels for a hole in the water, I'd really wanna know who I'm entrusting MY money to.
(please note, not a lot of "plaintiffs" in these cases, eh?)

NAV STAR AKA DFNDT Closed 94CV000152
NAV STAR MARINE AKA DFNDT Closed 94CV000105
NAVSTAR MARINE CO DFNDT Closed 93CV001843
NAVSTAR MARINE CO DFNDT Closed 91CV000762
NAVSTAR MARINE CO DFNDT Closed 93CV001314 NAVSTAR MARINE CO DFNDT Closed 94CV000105
NAVSTAR MARINE CO DFNDT Closed 94CV000152
NAVSTAR MARINE CO DBTR Closed 50-079A
NAVSTAR MARINE CO DFNDT Closed 93CV001421
NAVSTAR MARINE CO DFNDT Closed 93CV000280NAVSTAR MARINE COMPANY DBTR Closed 63-115B
NAVSTAR MARINE COMPANY DBTR Closed 63-152B
NAVSTAR MARINE COMPANY PLNTF Closed 94CV001597
NAVSTAR MARINE COMPANY DBTR Closed 57-143B
NAVSTAR MARINE COMPANY DBTR Closed 60-039B
NAVSTAR MARINE COMPANY DBTR Closed 03JL002387
NAVSTAR MARINE COMPANY DBTR Closed 03JL002403
NAVSTAR MARINE COMPANY DBTR Open 07JL000306
NAVSTAR MARINE COMPANY DBTR Open 07JL000308
NAVSTAR MARINE COMPANY PLNTF Closed 93CV001751
NAVSTAR MARINE COMPANY DFNDT Closed 93CV001840
NAVSTAR MARINE COMPANY DFNDT Closed 93CV001213
NAVSTAR MARINE COMPANY DBTR Open 06JL002833
NAVSTAR MARINE COMPANY DBTR Open 07JL0003
NAVSTAR MARINE COMPANY DBTR Closed 63-115A
NAVSTAR MARINE COMPANY DBTR Closed 56-072B
NAVSTAR MARINE COMPANY DBTR Closed 00JL002276
NAVSTAR MARINE INC AKA DFNDT Closed 93CV001843
NORTHSTAR YACHTS INC AKA DFNDT Closed 91CV000762
NORTHSTAR YACHTS INC NKA DBTR Closed 50-079A
NOVIS COMPOSITES LTD DFNDT Open 08CV001716
NOVIS COMPOSITES LTD DFNDT Closed 06CV000964
NOVIS COMPOSITES LTD DBTR Open 08JL000164
NOVIS MARINE DFNDT Closed 06DR000484
NOVIS MARINE LTD PLNTF Closed 07CV002697
NOVIS MARINE LTD DBTR Open 08JL002719
NOVIS MARINE LTD DBTR Open 07JL002192
NOVIS MARINE LTD DBTR Open 08JL003159
NOVIS MARINE LTD DFNDT Closed 06CV000965
NOVIS MARINE LTD DFNDT Closed 08CV000971
NOVIS MARINE LTD PLNTF Closed 07CV003537
NOVIS MARINE LTD DFNDT Closed 08CV000845
NOVIS MARINE LTD DFNDT Closed 07CV000104
NOVIS MARINE LTD DFNDT Closed 06CV001189
NOVIS MARINE LTD DFNDT Closed 07CV003662
NOVIS MARINE LTD DFNDT Closed 08CV001463
NOVIS MARINE LTD PLNTF Closed 07CV003008
NOVIS MARINE LTD DBTR Open 08JL000164
NOVIS MARINE LTD DFNDT Open 08CV002643
NOVIS MARINE LTD DFNDT Open 08CV001716
NOVIS MARINE LTD DBTR Open 08JL001506
NOVIS MARINE LTD DBTR Open 08JL001126
NOVIS MARINE LTD DBTR Open 08JL001931
NOVIS MARINE LTD DFNDT Open 08CV002565
TAPTAN YACHTS DBA DFNDT Open 08CV002565
TAPTAN YACHTS DBA DBTR Open 08JL001506
TAPTAN YACHTS DBA DBTR Open 08JL001126
TAPTAN YACHTS DBA DFNDT Open 08CV001716
TAPTAN YACHTS DBA DBTR Open 08JL001931
TAPTAN YACHTS DBA DFNDT Closed 08CV001463
TARTAN YACHTS DBA DFNDT Open 08CV002565
TARTAN YACHTS DBA DBTR Open 08JL001506
TARTAN YACHTS DBA DFNDT Open 08CV001716
TARTAN YACHTS DBA DBTR Open 08JL001126
TARTAN YACHTS DBA DFNDT Closed 08CV001463
TARTAN YACHTS DBA DBTR Open 08JL001931
FAIRPORT YACHT LTD DBTR Closed 03JL001597
FAIRPORT YACHT LTD DFNDT Closed 03CV001810
FAIRPORT YACHT SALES LTD DFNDT Open 08CV001716
FAIRPORT YACHTS LTD DBTR Closed 04JL001519
FAIRPORT YACHTS LTD DFNDT Closed 07CV001202
FAIRPORT YACHTS LTD DFNDT Closed 03DR000528
FAIRPORT YACHTS LTD DFNDT Open 08CV002565
FAIRPORT YACHTS LTD DFNDT Closed 01CV000308
FAIRPORT YACHTS LTD DBTR Closed 03JL002474
FAIRPORT YACHTS LTD DFNDT Closed 04CV000965
FAIRPORT YACHTS LTD PLNTF Closed 99CV000890
FAIRPORT YACHTS LTD PLNTF Closed 00CV001588
FAIRPORT YACHTS LTD DBTR Closed 02JL002306
FAIRPORT YACHTS LTD DBTR Closed 05JL000729
FAIRPORT YACHTS LTD DFNDT Closed 02CV001924
FAIRPORT YACHTS LTD DFNDT Closed 00CV000041
FAIRPORT YACHTS LTD DBTR Closed 01JL000650
ROSS, WILLIAM DFNDT Closed 92CV000203
ROSS, WILLIAM DFNDT Closed 99CV000955
ROSS, WILLIAM J DBTR Closed 03JL001597
ROSS, WILLIAM J DFNDT Closed 08CV001463
ROSS, WILLIAM J DBTR Closed 02JL002306
ROSS, WILLIAM J DFNDT Closed 02CV001924
ROSS, WILLIAM J DBTR Closed 03JL002474

Running a couple of quick ciphers using the old charcoal and tree bark, Ross is on the hook for a little over 5 million in closed judgments (some will never be collected due to "asset only sales" and reorganizations of his company(s) back to himself) and about 2 million in open court cases in various stages of collection. (I might be off by a million or two, its hard to tell if any of the owed companies will get interest)

If you've got a Tartan, good for you, most of them are dam fine boats. Same for C&C.
Don't ask me to recommend one, ok?

__________________
Madness, Mayhem, Confusion? My work here is done.
"I mean if I went round saying I was an emperor because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, people would put me away."

I will not belabor or repeat what others have said above but do have a couple of additional points.
1. MY constant follow up on Tartan/C&C issues has very little to do with the quality of the boats or EVEN to agree with VITO or STENER on their lawsuits vs. the company. I have repeatedly said that I believe that the overwhelming majority of Novis boats are great and that the problems appear to apply to very few hulls AND that the courts will decide the merits of those suits as we do not have all the information.
2. MY follow up has much more to do with company management and the finances and lawsuits and litigation, some of which Paul has detailed above. Show me another boat company out there with THAT kind of record. AND it didn't start with the recession...it is a continuing pattern. MY concern is for future boat owners who may happily plunk down a good portion of their savings unaware of the settled litigation and judgements against the company. If the company is truly insolvent as their former lawyers STATED UNDER OATH in their lawsuit recently settled...that may be of interest to buyers who may wish to take steps to insure their interests are protected.
3. MY follow up comes from the fact that BILL ROSS called Sailnet and had them remove the thread with all of this data so that customers would be clueless as to what was going on with the company. THAT is an infringement of free speech.
4. What I want to know is how you can post from Canada last night and today from Bulgaria? Proxy servers are wonderful things when you want to hide the fact that you are posting from somewhere else and don't want to be called out as a schill EH??
5. By the way...Novis claimed Yanmar made bad saildrives. They countersued Yanmar/MackBoring in NJ district court when Yanmar sued them for non-payment. When it came time to prove their case...they had ZERO evidence and withdrew the suit. Mack Boring won their part of the suit for non-payment and we await final judgement papers now. So much for it being Yanmars' problem.

POST away!! The more you do so...the deeper the hole you dig. You seem to "know" a lot of stuff and are good at twisting things around. Kinda like a smart lawyer.

__________________
Cam

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comments in the body....

__________________
Madness, Mayhem, Confusion? My work here is done.
"I mean if I went round saying I was an emperor because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, people would put me away."