Marine/Car Stereo Thread

[Camaraderie]

I have some professional experience in car stereo and consumer electronics and there always seems to be a lot of questions about adding a stereo system to a boat. This is meant as a general guide based on the more common issues but we can get as specific as you need to.
I posted this on another board and thought it might be useful here. Will follow up with posts on speakers, Ipods/Mp3 players, amps etc. but feel free to post your own thoughts, questions etc.



Selecting a Stereo System for your Boat…. Head Units

This will deal with the choice of a head unit (car or marine stereo) for your boat. I have a rather extensive professional background in this stuff and these are my opinions based on a lot of years and a lot of boats and are meant as a general guide and education.

Marinized or Car Stereo?

If the head unit is to be mounted down below or out of the elements, a car stereo is your best bet and you need not worry about performance or life. Buying a car unit will save you significant dollars compared to a marinized unit and since models are updated far more often…you are likely to find more choices in features and the latest technology.
Marinized units DO offer an extra measure of protection against moisture and corrosion and so should be used if they will be out in the cockpit and exposed to the elements.

Are Brands Important?
Yes… a bit. You can certainly get some off brand bargains and if you are on a real budget I would certainly consider one. Do NOT however, make the mistake of comparing off brand specifications to major brands and thinking you are getting the same thing. You get what you pay for.
My experience is that buying from someone who has a stake in the car stereo business and designs and supports their models on the technical side can be a real plus…both during the initial installation and when something goes wrong later on or if you simply want to expand and need compatibility assistance.
Who ARE the major brands in head units? Alpine, Blaupunkt, Calrion/Ecclipse, Kenwood, Panasonic, Pioneer, Sony.
I would classify Jensen (Audiovox) and Dual as grand old USA brand names that were bought and associated with far eastern factories who actually do manufacture car stereos, but had no ability to market here without the acquisition of a brand name. While the products can indeed be just fine…there is less of a reputation and support network.
I don’t think I’ve missed any other significant brands so buying anything else comes with some added risk.

Watt about Wattage?

LIES!! That’s all it is. Never believe anything you read on the package or in the ads from ANYONE including all the major brands. Wattage is power and power is loudness and clarity so manufacturer’s try to make their models seem powerful!! Here’s a great but very typical example. Which one of these radios would YOU buy?

• Packs 160 watts of peak power OR

• Power Output . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 Watts RMS x 4 channels

Interestingly…those are wattage claims for the same radio by the same manufacturer. Guess which one is on the box? Guess which one is tucked into the back page of the manual in fine print? Would you believe BOTH are lies? They are…so what do you do?
Well…most manufacturers have TWO types of radios in their line in terms of wattage…low power and high power. The low power models are typically the very cheapest ones in their lineup and the high power radios are EVERYTHING else. Yes…the $150 radio has the same amplifier as the $400 one from the same mfr. …so just buy the high power one that has the OTHER features you want! (The real power in standardized audio terms will never be more than 4-8 watts at 12V.)
Remember NEVER buy one mfr’s product over another’s because of CLAIMED wattage!!

KEY FEATURES for Boaters and what they do:

There are dozens of features on even the cheapest radios and most of you should be familiar with the common ones from your cars. Here are some of the most important features to boaters and MOST can be found in radios in the $100-200 range.

• Preamp Output jacks…let you add a REAL amplifier with real wattage to your boat system. If you like your music loud, (or simply want the ability to clear our a quiet anchorage!) this may be something to look for. Without these, it is difficult to expand your system later.

• RemoteControl sounds like a luxury but it is widely available today and lets you change tunes while still keeping a hand on the tiller. Most units use IR (infrared) remotes which work line of sight. A very few use RF (radio frequency) which will work from anywhere on the boat.

• Auxilliary Input Jack…this is a mini headphone type jack found on the front, rear or side panels of many radios today. It lets you input sound from an outside source like an MP3 player or a TV or COMPUTER so you can watch your shows or listen to your ipod through the full power of the stereo.

• USB connection…gives you the ability to use the hi speed USB connection from a computer or IPOD or other MP3 player or even music stored on a thumb drive.

• IPOD connection/display…gives you the ability to hook up your IPOD to the radio (usually with a separately purchased cable). With an IPOD connection, you can see the songs and choices on the radio display AND control the IPOD rather than just letting it play.

• XM/Sirius READY- means you can add a Sirius or XM module on to be able to listen to digital non commercial subscription radio. This may or may not be important to you but as this is being written the company Sirius/XM is expected to announce chapter 11 bankruptcy in a day or two (2/15/08). There are rumors that they service will be dismantled by a new buyer who will use the satellite bandwidth to provide other services. It’s fine to get a radio that is READY for Sirius or XM…just don’t plan on Sirius or XM being around.

• HD Radio READY…lets you add an adapter to listen to local HD radio broadcasts. Personally I think HD is dead in the water and is about as popular as NEW Coke was. BUT…you may have an HD station you love locally so I include the option as something to consider.

• Bluetooth Ready…this is fairly new and lets you buy an adapter that lets you use the radio as you cell phone. You can add your contacts lists and answer and dial and speak and listen all through the radio which mutes the music when you get a call. Having dropped a cell phone overboard myself…this may have some appeal to boaters.

OK…those are the basics for head units. I plan to follow up with sections on speakers, adding an amplifier and installation/mounting considerations as I have time. So….if you have some questions about this or about a specific choice for your boat…or if I’ve missed something you think is important….chime right in!

[patrickrea]

Good post. Clear and concise. I like it. I'd give rep points but ....

[Giulietta]

Good post, thanks G...'

(small question..any chance 8 track may come beack)??? (VBG)

[Giulietta]

Originally Posted by patrickrea

. I'd give rep points but ....

sorry no reps here...give him a compliment, (as you did), it's worth more for him than any 1000 reps..

[craigtoo]

Thanks Cam.

Reading with interest. I'll want to replace my head unit soon. My crappy BOSE speakers will do just fine for a while though...!

great topic.

[SailChick20]

Got your PM...thanks for the info.

As you know, I'm filling my virtual shopping cart at Defender right now for Spring projects.

Looking forward to your info on speakers!

[SailChick20]

Cam....the car stereo decks that come with a remote "that can be used from the backseat," I'm guessing won't work from the cockpit.

Can you suggest a good deck with remote, Ipod, CD...that may or may not have satellite readiness?

[ckgreenman]

You know that you CAN rate threads

[Camaraderie]

Chick...I'll do something on speakers shortly. First let me answer your deck question. You hav 2 issues I think with remotes. One for the head unit and another for the ipod you want to hook up right? What you want is an RF remote control for both...not an IR (line of sight infra-red). This puts you into more expensive head units since RF is reserved for better models or marine models where distance is important.
If remote control only for the ipod from the helm is all you need then you can get by with a cheaper radio like the Kenwood kdcx493 for $169 at crutchfield which is a killer deal in all other respects.
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_113KDCX...search=excelon





If you DO need RF remote on the head unit from the helm...then I think the Alpine is the only solution at $349. Of course you get a fully marinized unit for the extra $$ but I still think the Kenwood is a way better value unless you need that one feature or are mounting out in the cockpit.

As to IPOD connections...both these radios will hook up just fine...but you'll want a remote for the cockpit. That will be another post! Hope this helps. On to speakers.
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_500A988...M.html?tp=1721

[ckgreenman]

So Is there a head unit out there (not necessarily marinized) that has the ipod interface and a hardwire remote?

[Camaraderie]

OK...now on to boat speakers in general terms. Let's consider two uses...in the cockpit and down below.

In the cockpit

Unlike car stereos, you can't just use any old car speakers in the cockpit. BUT you can save money and get better sound by buying the RIGHT car speakers or outdoor box speakers.
Lets start with flush mount speakers where you will cut a hole in some fiberglass to mount them. First things first:


1. Don't cheap out. You should spend about as much for a pair of speakers as for a decent radio. THEY make the difference in sound.
2. Flush mount cockpit speakers made for CARS...must have the following to be suitable for marine use: Plastic cones...not paper, Butyl Rubber surrounds attaching the cones to the speaker basket...not FOAM or PAPER!, plastic grills...not metal which will rust.
3. Get ONLY round speakers...never oval...and get at last 6" round. This will give you less distortion and decent bass.
4. Always get a 2 way speaker with a separate tweeter. Tweeters may be made of plastic or metal or material...but never paper.
5. Or do the easy thing and buy marinized speakers for the same quality sound but at $50-100 higher!
6. A good pair of flush mount speakers will out perform a box speaker in the same price range every time. If you don't mind cutting...they are preferred sound wise.

Box Speakers



Box speakers are convenient to wire and hook up and can often be mounted on dodger frames or arches or under stern seats easily with no cutting. They typically have less bass and take more power to achieve a given sound level than flush mounts. Fortunately, in the last few years there has been a boom in outdoor speakers for the home so you don't have to pay for marine versions to get decent speakers!
Bass AND price will largely depend on woofer size within a brand...but you also have to consider overall size of the box and where you will be putting them. Here again...always get a 2-way speaker.

Down Below



Down below you can of course use the same types of speakers suitable for the cockpit but there is really no need for this. I suggest that there are MANY fine smaller home speakers that are suitable for boats, and will provide excellent sound. Most home speakers are rated at 8 ohms vs. car speakers at 4 ohms. Do NOT worry about this...there is NO danger...you may just have to turn up the volume dial a little bit to get the level you want.

[Camaraderie]

Originally Posted by ckgreenman

So Is there a head unit out there (not necessarily marinized) that has the ipod interface and a hardwire remote?

CK ...I think some Pioneer units have optional hardwire remotes but the hardwire is designed not to reach to your pedestal...but to your car steering wheel! I'm sure you could clip and extend but by the time you are done...you'll be frustrated I think.
Most people these days are simply opting to get a radio and hook their IPOD to it and then simply control the IPOD with an RF Remote from the helm.
There are lots of remote choices for IPOD. The ijet is probably the top one right now:

and they even have one with on screen control that can be adapted to a 12V system easily.

[Camaraderie]

Chick...OK.. now what are you looking for in speakers? Box or Flush and what is your price range per pair? Will you be getting a pair for downstairs as well? Any size limitations?

[patrickrea]

Originally Posted by Giulietta

sorry no reps here...give him a compliment, (as you did), it's worth more for him than any 1000 reps..

I know there aren't any rep points. I never did find them to be of any use. I was just being a jackass. I'm good at it.

[ebs001]

Cam, you mention chapter 11 for Sirius/XM what happened in this regard as both are still in business?

[T37 SOLARE]

Originally Posted by ebs001

Cam, you mention chapter 11 for Sirius/XM what happened in this regard as both are still in business?

Liberty Media invested some $500mil into Sirius/XM so they seem to be solvent for at least the next couple years.



http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=100772428

Liberty Media Deal Staves Off Sirius Bankruptcy

by The Associated Press

NPR.org, February 17, 2009 · Liberty Media Corp. will invest $530 million in Sirius XM Radio Inc., fending off a likely bankruptcy for the satellite radio company and blocking a bid by a rival, Dish Network Corp. CEO Charlie Ergen, to take control of Sirius.

Sirius had warned it could file for bankruptcy as early as Tuesday if it could not successfully negotiate with its debt holders. Sirius XM Radio has 20 million subscribers, who use the service to listen to sports, music and talk, including Howard Stern's show.

Ergen holds much of the batch of debt that had come due Tuesday and had offered capital infusions and a restructuring of the loans in return for control of the company. Sirius Chief Executive Mel Karmazin rejected that offer and appears to have found an alternative in time to stave off a Chapter 11 filing.

Sirius shares were up 7 cents, or 69 percent, at 18 cents in morning trading.

As part of the deal announced Tuesday, Liberty will provide a $280 million senior secured loan to Sirius, $250 million of which will be funded on Tuesday. Sirius will use the proceeds of the loan to repay $171.6 million of its maturing 2.5 percent convertible notes that had been due. The rest will be used for general corporate purposes.

The loan from Liberty bears a 15 percent interest rate and matures in December 2012.

The second phase of Liberty's investment provides another loan of $150 million to Sirius XM. Liberty has also agreed to offer to buy up to $100 million of the loans outstanding under Sirius XM's existing credit facilities.

In exchange, Liberty will get 12.5 million shares of preferred stock convertible into 40 percent of Sirius' common shares, and two seats on the company's board. The company said it expects Liberty Chairman John Malone and President and Chief Executive Greg Maffei to join the Sirius board.

[craigtoo]

Originally Posted by ckgreenman

So Is there a head unit out there (not necessarily marinized) that has the ipod interface and a hardwire remote?

This comes after all the nav lights right? And the bilge pump, and the VHF, and an interior light, and ....

[jrd22]

Thanks for the good post Cam. I bought a Kenwood head unit and some Boston bookshelf speakers based on your recommendation on the "other" site and I'm very happy with them. Thanks again.

[ckgreenman]

Originally Posted by craigtoo

This comes after all the nav lights right? And the bilge pump, and the VHF, and an interior light, and ....

Yes but I don't have questions on those. yet....


As for interior lights I got that covered.

I got 2 of these.

[sailingdog]

Originally Posted by ckgreenman

So Is there a head unit out there (not necessarily marinized) that has the ipod interface and a hardwire remote?

Alpine does, see here

So does Clarion, which is what I have on my boat, but the Alpine iPod interface is much better.

Sony probably does as well.

[Camaraderie]

Funny you should ask EBS...they were in the news today. Saved by an infusion of $$ in exchange for controlling interest. No word yet on what the plans are....

Sirius XM Receieves Second Phase of Funding from Liberty Media, Extends Credit
March 9, 2009

[Satellite Today 03-09-09] Liberty Media has closed its second, and final phase of its $530 million investment in Sirius XM Radio, Sirius XM announced Mar. 6.
Liberty has committed to loan an additional $150 million to XM Satellite Radio, which has amended and extended its existing $350 million credit facilities, to be used to repay a portion of the outstanding principal amount of 10 percent convertible notes due Dec. 1, 2009. XM Satellite Radio's existing term loan and revolving loan have been rolled into a single term loan facility. As previously agreed in February, Liberty has purchased $100 million aggregate principal amount from the lenders.
Under the existing terms of their agreement, Sirius XM has issued Liberty an aggregate of 12.5 million shares of new preferred stock convertible into 40 percent of the common stock of Sirius XM.
The funding, first announced on Feb. 17, came just as Sirius XM warned that it was in danger of bankruptcy. The first of the two-phase funding plan included an immediate cash injection of $250 million from Liberty to Sirius. The proceeds of that loan were used to repay $171.6 million of notes due Feb. 17 and for general corporate purposes, including working capital and transaction costs.

[T34C]

Any specific suggestions on box speakers for the interior?

[Camaraderie]

T34C...do you want "outdoor" speakers there or are home speakers OK since it is down below? What is the maximum size box you can tolerate? I assume you are gonna run them off a standard car stereo right?

At the risk of repeating myself...these little Paradigms are HOME speakers that are quite nice sounding yet compact.

Paradigm Cinema Micros. http://www.paradigm.com/en/paradigm/...1-2-2.paradigm
A bit tough to find...and at $300 may not be what you are looking for. Give me a budget range for a pair too and I can make more specific recommendations.

[catnmowze]

Originally Posted by Camaraderie

3. Get ONLY round speakers...never oval...and get at last 6" round. This will give you less distortion and decent bass.

I want to thank you for this informative post, there's a lot of great information here. Good stuff!

I want to ask you about your third guideline for selecting speakers: only round, never oval. I've never heard this before, and I'm wondering what is the advantage of round speakers (or alternately, the drawback of ovals).

Unfortunately, my boat's previous owner cut holes in the cabin for your standard 6x9s, so that's what I bought to replace the ancient, battered, torn-cone units that came with the boat. The new ones sound pretty good (Pioneer 5-ways), but I'd certainly like to hear your insights for future purchases.

Grazie!

[Camaraderie]

Cat...Glad you enjoyed the thread. As to oval vs. round:

First...you have to understand that the only reason speakers were made oval in the first place was to be able to fit them into the narrow rear deck of a car and still provide enough surface area for good bass. The 6x9, 5x7 and 4x10 common sizes were all a response to the constraints of a car...not a design for goo sound. You never see an oval speaker in a home speaker for this reason.

Second...the "why" is a matter of physics. In reproducing the original sound wave faithfully, the ideal speaker will act as a perfect piston, propagating a perfectly coherent sound wave in the air. The easiest way to envision this is to imagine taking a round speaker and dropping it face first into a pool of water...the resulting waves will be uniform and spread equally in all directions. Doing the same thing with an oval shape will result in distorted wave forms.
The motor force for a speaker comes from the voice coil in the center of the speaker...to the extent that the force reaches one side of the speaker before another side of the speaker, the driving force will be distorted...resulting in higher distortion levels in the sound. In non-critical listening systems, this added distortion is acceptable especially when extra bass is desired and the only way to get this to increase speaker surface area by making an oval instead of a circle.
Hope that clears it up.

Now I will also say that a 5 way speaker is total marketing BS (i.e. bigger is better, more ways is better) ...but that the Pioneers are probably just fine for your purposes. Nevertheless...for others...you are much better off in ANY size car speaker going with a simple 2 way design (3 way at most) with a quality woofer and tweeter and an effective and well designed crossover.
A good rule of thumb is to look at the speakers from quality home speaker companies who also design car speakers. All the best round speakers thay make are 2 way design...or component systems with separate tweeters and crossovers. (Note...for those less familiar with the industry...Polk,JBL,Infinity,BostonAccoustics, Focal, JLAudio, MBQuart would be primary speaker mfrs.). There are also dedicate car audio suppliers who make fine speakers...Rockford/Fosgate, Alpine, Blaupunkt would be just a few but there are also many mass market electronics companies which make everything and are driven more by price point, bang for the buck (or boom for the buck) an flashy cosmetics. Some have some decent speakers in their lineups, but you have to listen and compare carefully.

Hope this is helpful for the future! In the meantime...enjoy the Pioneers...I'm sure they are a good step up in sound quality and a good value for the money.

[catnmowze]

Originally Posted by Camaraderie

Hope this is helpful for the future! In the meantime...enjoy the Pioneers...I'm sure they are a good step up in sound quality and a good value for the money.

The Pioneers were indeed cheap and they sound okay. In my case, even getting a good stereo image is tough – again, thanks to the idiot previous owner. The cutout for one speaker is in a cabinet side about 4 feet above the sole, the other is at ankle level in the foot of a settee – and at 90 degrees to the first. Sigh. I don't know what the hell he was thinking.

I may come up with something better in the future. Meantime, thanks again for the great discussion!

[RHoodJr]

Any advice on power amps? I am concerned with their power need when used with just the house battery bank. 100 watts X 4 rms = around 30 amp draw does it not? Not sure I understand all of the power measurement jargon.

[Camaraderie]

Well...in a GENUINE consevatively rated 100Wattx4 amplifier you are looking at 400 watts being supplied continuously at 14.4 volts (car amplification standard).
since Amps = wattage divided by voltage... you are looking at about 28amps draw.
On a 100ah battery that gives you 2 hours of use before the battery needs to be recharged.
Not a great idea if the plan is to play at full tilt. As a practical matter, you may actually be averaging far less power use than that since typical listening levels even WITH a 100 watt amp are at just a few watts...and the 100watts and 28 amps is only used on peaks in the music which can be 10-20x higher than average power needs since it takes twice as much power for a 3db increase in volume and 10x as much power for a doubling of volume. On the other hand...if you are powering subwoofers and trying to blow the hatches off then you should keep the engine running!
The only way to tell for sure what YOU will use is to clamp on an amp meter or buy a battery monitor for the boat that will do the same thing (a good idea anyway!...Try VICTRON!)

Note...this advice applies ONLY to high quality, brand name separate amplifiers with spec sheets that detail their wattage as RMS into various loads, from 20-20000hz and at less than 1%THD.
It does NOT apply to wattage in head units or printed on pretty boxes!